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Post by pennyt on Jan 30, 2018 11:31:41 GMT
Quite liked Cordelia also, and Charles didn't deserve Celia. Would like to see the adaption now. Yes, me too. I thought we had the DVD somewhere but can't find it.
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Post by geminii on Jan 30, 2018 11:50:26 GMT
Quite liked Cordelia also, and Charles didn't deserve Celia. Would like to see the adaption now. Yes, me too. I thought we had the DVD somewhere but can't find it. I collected all 12 DVDs of the original Series and watched them .. but sold them on eBay .. there are a few Sets on there for a couple of quid .. I've not seen the Film version .. Hence I was aware of what was to become of Sebastian ..
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peppercricket
Book Assistant
Batley Townswoman's Guild presents the Battle of Pearl Harbour
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Post by peppercricket on Jan 30, 2018 12:33:10 GMT
I can get it from the library, though goodness knows when I'd get round to watching it.
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Post by geminii on Jan 30, 2018 13:45:05 GMT
[ spoliers ]
Anyway, I was glad when the Book came to an end, but felt that the story didn't ..
I appreciate it was purely from Charles' perspective, but what happened to Sebastian ?? He was initially our point of interest, and I would like to know what happened to Cordelia .. they seemed to be the only characters who lived their lives as they really wanted to ..
Hmm... Although Sebastian lived independently of the family, I'm not sure it was living as he really wanted to. He was clearly depressed, an alcoholic, with a strongly self-destructive streak, and although we don't actually see him die surely Cordelia's prediction was right that he would eventually be found dead or dying at the gate of the monastery?
I like everything you've said here .. and to the most part, I completely agree .. However, perhaps the point I've failed to make clear is how I saw their overall situation .. " Their fathers' departure had a lasting effect on his children .. Bridie as the heir and great things would be expected - not only continuing the family line, but as he could not do anything well, he did nothing .. Julia, the debutante with her raison d'etre to marry well .. Sebastian had no limitations put upon him, his initial drinking seemed to be shrugged off by his siblings, and Cordelia was all-but forgotten. Those two had no 'duty' to perform, hence the freedoms I mentioned .. Also, there was no shortage of money
I don't think that Charles & Sebastian had anything more than a friendship, although I do believe that Charles was initially infatuated. I don't think Sebastian loved him .. Also Charles didn't stay with Sebastian when he found him, left him to care for the German, came home and effectively got married. The lack of detail over that chapter of his life was more telling. When I read the excerpts you refer to, it did make me question Charles' motives for his affair with Julia at the time .. He seemed quite content in his life at Brideshead, and was keen for Julia to take it over after her fathers' death. "
There are so many nuances in the story, that I could probably read it again and get a completely different slant ..
Thinking back to the TV version .. I'm sure certain relationships / predilections were much more 'blurred' than in the book .. except for the flamboyance of Anthony ..
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peppercricket
Book Assistant
Batley Townswoman's Guild presents the Battle of Pearl Harbour
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Post by peppercricket on Jan 30, 2018 13:46:16 GMT
Basically, they were a thoroughly unhappy lot!
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Post by pennyt on Jan 30, 2018 15:11:27 GMT
There are so many nuances in the story, that I could probably read it again and get a completely different slant ..
Yes, I agree completely that you'd almost certainly get a lot more, and different views, from a second reading. There is an awful lot in here in terms of themes - maybe not so much in terms of character as I felt they were all fairly two-dimensional, even Charles whose head we get inside most - or ought to. I'm not sure I ever really understood his motives for anything, or what he really thought, which is odd for a first-person narrative. But I forgot to say earlier that one thing I really really loved was Waugh's style - it's elegant and often simply beautiful, and to me never felt ostentatious or OTT. There are quotable lines on almost every page too. And the cameo-portrait of Charles's father was just wonderful and very funny - I could have done with a lot more of him and less of some of the Flytes!
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Post by rosemary3 on Feb 1, 2018 12:02:26 GMT
The last line of rosemary3 review on GR was spot on - "But the Catholic church holds the trump card." Ooh, fame! I was waiting to see what you would all think of this - rather afraid you would all hate it. I loved it as a student, but I think it was probably only the first part I really enjoyed then. I always liked stories about gay men even when they ended unhappily, as they pretty much always did in the 20th century, Forster's Maurice being the exception (and another one of my favourite books at the time). I certainly assumed that Sebastian and Charles had a relationship, and that Charles betrayed Sebastian in a sense, by opting for a "normal life" and marriage to women. (Waugh did something similar himself, gay affairs as a student and then marriage.) I suppose because I saw it that way and knew how these stories went, I was expecting doom and death and despair. I also like books about people exploring religious faith even though I see it more like philosophy myself. Waugh was a Catholic convert so it must have been hugely important to him and I think he was quite defensive about it in this book - more than somebody who'd grown up Catholic would be.
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Post by geminii on Feb 1, 2018 12:08:29 GMT
The last line of rosemary3 review on GR was spot on - "But the Catholic church holds the trump card." Waugh was a Catholic convert so it must have been hugely important to him and I think he was quite defensive about it in this book - more than somebody who'd grown up Catholic would be. I didn't know that .. I can see now why that element seemed overly prominent ..
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Post by pennyt on Feb 1, 2018 12:38:34 GMT
The last line of rosemary3 review on GR was spot on - "But the Catholic church holds the trump card." Ooh, fame! I was waiting to see what you would all think of this - rather afraid you would all hate it. I loved it as a student, but I think it was probably only the first part I really enjoyed then. I always liked stories about gay men even when they ended unhappily, as they pretty much always did in the 20th century, Forster's Maurice being the exception (and another one of my favourite books at the time). I certainly assumed that Sebastian and Charles had a relationship, and that Charles betrayed Sebastian in a sense, by opting for a "normal life" and marriage to women. (Waugh did something similar himself, gay affairs as a student and then marriage.) I suppose because I saw it that way and knew how these stories went, I was expecting doom and death and despair. I also like books about people exploring religious faith even though I see it more like philosophy myself. Waugh was a Catholic convert so it must have been hugely important to him and I think he was quite defensive about it in this book - more than somebody who'd grown up Catholic would be. This is why I made the comparison/contrast above with Graham Greene who was also a convert to Catholicism. See also C S Lewis... Converts do seem to write more intensely about the faith than bred-in-the-bone Catholics, perhaps. However, I didn't know that Waugh had had gay affairs as a student. That suggests that BR was an extremely personal novel, which in turn perhaps explains the fact it feels extremely restrained at times, particularly in his portrait of Charles who I never really felt I "knew".
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anzee
Agatha Christie Whodunnit
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Post by anzee on Feb 1, 2018 18:59:45 GMT
BR was definitely a very personal novel for Waugh. Many of the characters were based on people he knew.There's an interesting book on the subject, which has been on my TBR list for some years - "Mad World: Evelyn Waugh and the Secrets of Brideshead," by Paula Byrne.
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