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Post by geminii on Jan 9, 2020 14:57:22 GMT
Welcome to the first discussion thread of 2020 !! Some of us have chosen to read this one at the beginning of the quarter and will soon be looking for somewhere to share our thoughts .. Don't worry, you have until the end of March (and beyond) to join in with this Q1 read .. Usual rules apply, please - use that whiteout option !!
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Post by adelynechan on Jan 11, 2020 10:50:36 GMT
I have very mixed feelings about this one, but thank you Mrs Mac for the choice and the introduction to a part of British history that I wasn’t familiar with at all before! It actually didn’t occur to me to think about what might have transpired in the years separating the two world wars, where I expect there were widespread feelings of fear that the country would go into a second war (particularly by the people who served in the first, or the families that lost loved ones in the first), but at the same time looking at the advancing enemy and being mentally prepared that history about to repeat itself. I was utterly misled by what it says on the blurb, and only quite far into the book did I realise that the title is “After the Party” where the author is referring to Party and not party (I originally thought the capitalising of the P was simply because this is the title of a book!), and was wondering when she would cut to the chase and tell us all about this party that seemingly gets the story started. Only once I realised that the Party had been there all along did things start to make sense, and this happened far too late for me. I think I would enjoy this a little more were I to re-read it, as I would be in the right contextual frame of mind from the start, but I didn’t like it enough to do so and I think I’d rather tackle that TBR of books I’ve never read.
I did like how the author was trying to portray the notion that when parties like these fascist ones come into play and expand their influence throughout a country like this, more often than not it is brainwashed members of the public who do not necessarily fully understand what they are subscribing to, that spread the influence through recruitment of their family and friends. The use of camps such as the ones organised by Nina and Eric I believe are the ways in which ideologies spread, under the cover of more innocent pretexts. Subsequent research after finishing this book tells me that the Party had been outlawed in the country prior to the events of the story (I might have felt a bit less sympathetic had I know this before reading), but even from an outsider point of view Nina was my favourite character in the book so I saw it as no surprise that her sister was easily won-over by her.
I’m not sure I fully related to the recounting version of Phyllis (on that note – what was the significance of the year 1979?), her insistence that she is able to forgive Nina for selling her and Hugh out but not Patricia for what she refers to as “stealing my child”. It seemed obvious to me that Edwin had already been lost to her by that stage, and even in his adult years he preferred the company of his cousin over his sisters implying that he did genuinely enjoy being with Patricia and her family in his youth. I thought the arrangement proposed by Patricia and Greville would have been in Edwin’s best interests – he would be able to continue at the school that he presumably liked, and would be able to continue with the activities he enjoyed with Greville. They are relatives too, and it’s not like Phyllis would have completely lost the ability to see or interact with her son: The arrangement was that he would spend half his holidays with her, he is away at school most of the time anyway, and my guess is even without being “adopted” he would have on his own accord gone over to Patricia’s anyway. Her willingness to forgive Nina is quite mysterious to me, as it was her selling out Patricia and Hugh that got them into this mess to begin with!
The fact that I haven’t said much about the party and what subsequently happened to Sarita probably reflects the fact that looking back at the story as a whole it didn’t seem very significant to me, that it almost gets brushed as an aside by the time Phyllis and Hugh are arrested. Very close to the end the 1979 version of Phyllis talks about how it changed her life and that she felt almost as though she went to prison as redemption for what she did to Sarita rather than her Party activities, but I felt there was little to reflect this in the actual narrative. She goes to great lengths to make it clear that it was Fergus that was making moves on her during the dance, that she had no intentions beyond dancing, so why would it affect her so profoundly? Would she have been equally affected had Sarita not died that night i.e. is she regretting her thoughts/actions at the time or simply the consequence? I also didn’t quite feel the closeness described in the 1979 narratives, it felt as though Phyllis wanted to be close to Sarita but didn’t know how and as such their friendship wasn’t really as deep as she’d like – therefore Sarita’s death was more a regret on what could have been rather than a true cherished friend.
I did not know of Oswald Mosley before so at the very least reading this book made me go and figure out what he did and what his ideologies were – the only Mosley I had heard of before was the Formula 1 guy Max Mosley who turns out to be Oswald’s son. I gave 3 stars (and a slightly different review, mainly just how thoughts are arranged) on Goodreads, I think this reflects the fact that there were parts that I really liked but I felt really annoyed at the sleight with the party and the fact that I didn’t like any of the characters in particular.
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Post by celia48 on Jan 15, 2020 17:31:14 GMT
I felt that this was very much a book of two halves. In the first half, we were introduced to the main characters, Phyllis and her husband Hugh, and Phyllis’s two sisters, snobby Patricia and idealistic Nina who had married into trade, very much frowned on by Patricia and by Hugh. In many ways, theirs was a privileged lifestyle with much emphasis on dinner parties and mixing with the ‘right people’. I think it was boredom that drew Patricia and Hugh to the charismatic Sir Oswald Mosely – the British Union Party gave Hugh something to do now that he was no longer working full-time. I never thought Phyllis was very committed. The second half was quite shocking. I didn’t realise that during the Second World War, people were interned because of their political beliefs but, of course, things were quite different during wartime. It seemed so unfair that Phyllis was imprisoned as her involvement in the BUP was so slight. Even Hugh’s possession of a gun wasn’t so unusual in those days. I also didn’t realise they were sent to the Isle of Man. Can you imagine doing that now? I knew a little about Mosely and his British Union Party but the book made me want to know more. I did enjoy the book but I have a couple of criticisms. The word Fascist was hardly used and anti-Semitism glossed over. Also, there was no mention of Mosely and Diane’s friendship with Hitler and surely this would have been talked about in the period leading up to the war and just after. Also, I can’t believe that Nina would give the authorities her sister’s name and if she did, wouldn’t she be wracked with guilt after? And I can’t believe that Phyllis forgave her. It was a terrible thing to do to anyone let alone your own sister. A good and interesting read. Thank you for choosing it Susan. If anyone would like a copy, I am happy to pass it on.
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Post by adelynechan on Jan 15, 2020 22:17:15 GMT
...I did enjoy the book but I have a couple of criticisms. The word Fascist was hardly used and anti-Semitism glossed over. Also, there was no mention of Mosely and Diane’s friendship with Hitler and surely this would have been talked about in the period leading up to the war and just after.
I completely agree with this! " It actually took me awhile to work out what was going on - I was that disoriented with the setting. Granted, I am really unfamiliar with this period of history so probably difficult to relate to begin with."
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Post by janetandjohn on Feb 17, 2020 13:41:59 GMT
This is not only the tale of a woman who lost everything; but also bit of English history well researched and well told.
First, there was no mention of a name or a group until after page 70, and although I realised this would be Oswald Moseley and his group somewhere in the first couple of chapters I liked the fact that the reveal was so slow. For younger readers the penny may not have dropped so soon, and also I had no idea whatsoever that Moseley's movement held Summer camps along the south coast for some years.
I appreciated the description of internment in Holloway, and later on the Isle of Man because this was something I knew very little of.
The illustrations of the upper classes in the years between the two world wars was no surprise to me, but still staggering in it's snobbishness, and total ignorance of any world except their own.
I also really liked the breaks in the story when Phyllis speaks about that time in her later life (1979), when all she had is lost in a manner of speaking, and she really does not see how awful it all was - she does rather concentrate on herself.
I thought this was a cracking read- done and dusted in 24 hours! All this from a book I picked up as a new purchase, never having heard a thing about it and only attracted by the cover. As this one was my choice for the first quarter this year, I am glad to see that people are getting something out of it.
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Post by rosemary3 on Feb 17, 2020 17:56:59 GMT
I really enjoyed this and found it very thought-provoking on a number of levels. I also realised early on that this was going to be about British fascists, and I appreciated the way that we were drawn in much like Phyllis was, in slowly recognising what this camp was about - although with the benefit of hindsight, we could see the danger and the extremism much more than she did. Maybe she really believed it was a good thing to be working for peace in the beginning. But I thought she was an unreliable narrator, a bit disingenuous - pretending she knew nothing about their views on Jews, for example, when later we are told that the speakers at meetings (including Nina) were so vociferous about this that Mosley himself limited them to 10 minutes on the subject. Also in 1979 it sounds like she still pretty much believes in it all.
The relationships between the sisters were interesting, and I think the reason Phyllis could forgive Nina more easily than Patricia was probably more about their personalities than anything they did. Patricia was the oldest, and Phyllis as the youngest was perhaps always a little resentful of her? But Nina, closer to her own age, was more relatable. Phyllis was also quite secretive as a child, keeping quiet about her special friendship with Jamie and enjoying the fact that her sisters were wrong when they thought her life was an open book. So I thought quite likely she wasn't telling us everything, either.
There was always antagonism between Hugh on the one hand and Eric & Nina on the other, and I would guess when they gave the names they thought they were just giving Hugh a few sleepless nights, probably didn't know he had the gun, and had no idea Phyllis would be arrested too or that they would actually go to jail. So I wasn't so surprised by Phyllis forgiving Nina.
I've always thought the real injustice was the German Jewish refugees who were interned on the IoM, and I was surprised there wasn't more tension between them and the fascist internees in the book. But then the whole of the politics seems to go right over Phyllis's head - or does it? Is she just pretending to think that the camps were a jolly thing for the children and there was no harm in anybody? I still can't decide, and I think that was the most interesting question for me.
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